Official Luthiers Forum!

Thanks Rod & Mario, i'll have to check if it is LV, it's been sittin' on a shelf for the last 5 or 6 months, too scared to use it. And if i have the pearl one, i should just throw in the trash if i run into it ?

Serge

Bruce, No i did not get it yet but sure will go ballisticly straight to my shop when i receive it!

Serge

P.S. The Bear is how they call me at home, not because of the fur, more likely because of how i sound when i hurt meself in the shop!

The pearl glue is usually an imported glue that is more bone than hide.
The stuff is terrible, and so is the smell.

With the price of the good Milligan & Higgins glues I have no idea why
anyone would import and sell the cheap pearl stuff, but it is out there.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

Thanks a lot David, now i'l know what to do if i run into that smelly stuff!

Serge

David, i've just checked at Lee Valley with the product number and it appears that i bought the granular type instead of the pearl one. Thanks again, i feel better already!


Mario, my HHG is granulated and rated 260g + Bloom strength, Is this good enough according or compared to what you use?

SergeSerge Poirier38731.9140046296

Most folks use hider ranging from 192 to 251. I've always used 192, so
hopefully someone else will have experience with this. It will certainly gel
quicker but I don't know by how much.David Collins38731.931099537

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

David, the tech, sheet says that i have 3-5 min. open assembly time, 60 min. clamp time, 24 hours of joint conditioning and that it is stable for freeze/thaw cycles. 3 to 5 minutes is purdy quick when assembling, especially for a beginner, i think i'll have to practice my speed on scraps first!

3-5 min open time for HHG seems too long. I'm used to getting the surfaces together within 30-60 seconds. I also use the 192 grade.

Practice with this stuff and time how long it takes to gel after applying. You want the surfaces together and clamped before it gels. If you miss that time, take it apart, clean and start again. Try to have your surfaces warm to give you more open time.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

3-5 minutes sounds about right. Your workbench is in a sauna
though, right?

No, something is very wrong with thier tech sheet. I would guess 260
gram strength mixed at an adequate viscosity would start to gel in 30
seconds max, even with moderately preheated surfaces, probably quicker.

260 is pretty high for general woodworking. Much higher than that and
you'll be approaching glass-chipping grade.

J.J., good to see you made it home safe.David Collins38732.0054282407

_________________
Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

Dave and JJ, I have to agree with both of you guys.

JJ, i'll practice on scraps first as you say and time the gel time.

David, i just rechecked and i really read 3-5 minutes open assembly time, i guess they wanna attract the customers SLOWLY! . Something's wrong here!

I'll post my results next year!

Thanks guys

The first hide glue I used was the LV stuff. They said it was 260 gram then, too. I then purchased a barrel(you know I -am- serious, right?) of 192 gram, high clarity from M&H, which should last half my career.... I also tried their pearl glue; stank to no end, was weaker than flour mixed with milk(LMI white???!?) and even tasted bad <bg>

The LV granular stuff was a lower gram than the 192 M&H, I am certain. They must just buy a barrel of whatever is cheapest, and break it down into one pound bags and sell it. Never mind their "tech" sheet, and never mind what they say it is. I'd guess it is more likely a 160 gram glue.

It was still plenty strong, and had a slightly longer open time than the 192. It was fine. In fact, it was easier to work with than the 192...

Minutes is wrong. You have seconds <bg> 30 seconds is about right, but stop and stare at a clock for 30 seconds, and you'll see that it is a long time. I can get anything clamped in that time frame..... And if you miss, and don't get it clamped, pull it apart right then and there, wipe off the gelled glue, and start over. No big deal, it is very forgiving...

[QUOTE=Mario]STARE at a clock for 30 seconds, and you'll see that it is a long time. I can get anything clamped in that time frame..... And if you miss, and don't get it clamped, pull it apart right then and there, wipe off the gelled glue, and start over. No big deal, it is very forgiving...[/QUOTE]

Now, here is news you can use! Wipe it off and try again. Okay, now a request.

Mario, I have hide glued braces and back and top seams, and dovetails and bridges. For the life of me, though, I could never figure out how I'd get a back or top glued to the rimset without the whole thing gelling on me. How do you do it? And for that matter how do the Double Bass Makers do a Double Bass top? Befuddled for sure?

Gluing tops and backs was the most difficult part for me. On the first 2 guitars, I had 2 pairs of extra hands helping to clamp the plates. For the last 2 I used a gobar setup and was able to do it myself.

The key is definitely practice. You'll need to establish your own time-motion dance until you feel comfortable. Do dry runs like fire drills before you go "live"...and even then, expect to pull things apart, scrape and repeat. This will build confidence, and I believe that its the key. Mario recommended laying a bead on the kerfed linings (not brushing) and that was a key element in shaving off lots of precious seconds for me.

Mario can probably do this in his sleep because he makes a lot of guitars and over time his muscle memory is on auto-pilot. I make 2 a year and have to go through the rehearsal routine every time. It takes committment. Like I always said...If I can do it, anyone can.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Thanks Mario, Bruce and JJ, that was very enlightning and reassuring BTSW . If i find that this batch of HHG suits me well, i'm a gonna buy myself a barrel too!

Slow down Serge, Baby steps your OLF bros said...

Aweright guys, you're the greatest , i'm jumpin' in, wish me good luck!

Bruce, the bass and cello guys do it a section at a time. They glue 6 inches, clamp, then lift the plate, sneak in some glue for another 6 inches, clampe, and keep going around...

Me, I use the go-bar deck. Let's say I'm about the glue the back to the rim.

I set the dish on the deck. Line it with some paper for padding(about ten sheets of newsprint). Lay the back down on this, and then test drop the rim set on it, and add a few go0-bars to snug it. Just 4-6 bars for now. I'll now shut the shop lights, and with a flashlight inside the "body", I'll shoot light at teh edge all the way aorund, to be positive that we have a dead-on perfect fit. Once satisfied of the fit, I'll trun the lights back on, make a couple index marks inside from the linings to the back, for future reference, and gently lift the rim set off the back. The back remains in the dish.

Set the rim set nect to the dish, and take the hair dryer to the surface. About 1-1/2 minute's worth of going 'round and 'round gets it nice and warm. Now, I reach formy glue bottle, which is sitting in the water bath, right next to all of this(see a pattern? Everything is right there, with me; I could glue my feet to the floor, and still be able to do this). I now run a bead of glue all around the rim; this takes, oh, ten seconds. While running the bead, I slopped a bit extra at the blocks. No need to spread this stuff! just run the bead.

Drop the bottle(no need to be nice, now, just drop the thing), and grab the rim set, flip it over quickly, and drop it on the back. Line it up to the index marks I drew in a few minutes before, and press down on the rim with my body weight, just a bit, to set the glue. Now, quickly grab the go bars which are laid out right there(again, be prepared), and start seting them, starting with two at each block, then staggering them around the rim.

Total time, under a minute, and with the warmed edge, we have made it with time to spare.

Now, take you time, and using a brush dipped in the hot water, start cleaning up the squeeze-out. Brush in one hand, hair dryer in the other, drying the edge where you just washed the glue from. This step is important! You will use lots pof water to clean it up, so keep the hair dryer going.

For the top, I'm much more careful with how big the bead will be, and I've never had much cleaning up to do. and if you do find a run or something a couple days down the road, a rag dipped in boikling water will clean it nicely, followed again by the hair dryer to dry it right away.

Same steps for the top, but I now will add a 1/4" plywood 'donut' to protect the top from the go bars. Otherwise, same-same...


And the rim set is always in the form throught all of this.

You can practice this by doing dry runs a few times. I still do a couple dry runs each time, myself.

The flashlight stage is quite revealing, also. I'm still surprised how many times I think my brace-to-rim fit was fine, only to see that I needed to file a bit on two or three notches.

File saved Man!

Okay, clear as day. I may have to reverse my protocol to do this. I usually have the rimset in the dish, and apply the back. That requires I flip the form and rim and change dishes for the top. Hmmm, jus' thinkin' out loud. Thanks, Coach, I'll try it for the next game after a little practice!

Nice writeup Mario! I had been pondering this one myself. Just hadn't worked up enough nerve to give it a try. Still think I'll practice the sequence several times before applying any glue, but this has given me a good starting point. Thanks dude!

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Dave Rector
Rector Guitars

Guys, do your next couple guitars the way I just described, but use Titebond. Pretend it is HHG, and go for it. Titebond is fine for this application, and it will give you real-world experience.


Maybe if I charged thousands and thousands of dollars for sharing my knowledge/experience, I'd get some respect....   

<wink>

Thanks Mario

The information is much appreciatted, don't get me wrong I may not agree with you all the time, but respect your opinion and work I most certainly do.

Russell

[QUOTE=Mario] Guys, do your next couple guitars the way I just described, but use Titebond. Pretend it is HHG, and go for it.

Maybe if I charged thousands and thousands of dollars for sharing my knowledge/experience, I'd get some respect....   

<wink>[/QUOTE]

Another great idea Mario. And you get plenty of respect (although you may have to wait till I sell a few for the $$$) from me. Thanks again!

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Dave Rector
Rector Guitars

Um, guys, just for a newbie, the next time one of you do this procedure, could you ask someone to photo graph the process? (Come to think of it, you could do a "dry" run and do photos without the actual glueup).

If not, no biggie. Thanks.

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Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

Thanks Mario,and for respect, you know you got mine and i ain't chargin'

Bill, i'll second you on that, let's hope it won't be a bother for one of them veterans!

What a great thread!

SergeSerge Poirier38732.8068634259

[QUOTE=Sprockett]

If you read some of Cumpiano's articles he mentions gluing down bridges for testing (in the white stage) with just good ole elmers and that it has held strung up guitars for a year, he uses it because with a little moisture and heat he can pop it back off.-Paul-[/QUOTE]


Thanks for the info Paul, I have read a lot of Compiano's articles but don't recall that particular one. Any way I was just wondering if Bruce had ever tried the "Titebond All-Purpose White Glue". I have been using this glue for different things in the shop for a little while. Can't tell any difference in the holding strength compared to the orginal TB, but it is a thinner glue and doesn't have that PVA smell when it is fresh. It does start to smell like vinegar when it starts to get old.

I don't use it on instruments, I am trying to use Hide Glue as much as I can. After taking Old Hide Glue joints apart I know how well this stuff holds. And after putting PVA glue joints back together I have an idea of how well it holds.

Mario, Thanks for that tutorial. Your lessons are always appreciated. You don't have to charge thousands of dollars for your knowledge/experience to be respected, but thousands of dollars to go with the respect would be nice wouldn't it.


Experience is a hard teacher. It gives the test first, and the lesson later